Following the atheist trend, 100,000 Britons have downloaded "certificates of de-baptism."I find it strange that while atheists prefer to look upon believers as superstitious and irrational, they can't see how they themselves often behave in the same way.
If the faith you do not believe in is false, why go through the bother? Are you afraid you might accidentally end up in Heaven against your wishes?
God forbid!
20 comments:
Exactly. I go to church with my family because they seem to enjoy it (or rather the discipline of going to church). For God's sake, if you don't have God in your thoughts, you might at least consider keeping your fellow man there- which includes their beliefs.
But your point is better put.
There's a couple things going on here.
Some people want their names removed from the church records because they aren't members, don't believe in it, and don't want to be associated with it in any way. It appears that some churches are reluctant to change their records just based on an individual's request, so this certificate was created as a sort of protest to that.
Now more people are filling out this certificate to make a statement and to get the public's attention.
They don't believe that filling out the certificate will affect their afterlife in any way, because they don't believe there is an afterlife. It's not a superstitious move, it's a political one.
Isn't a name a kind of afterlife?
Perhaps these folks are more religious than the theists they're leaving behind.
It's the religion of the self. Britain has, after all, in large part invented the individual self as we know it today- and behind those philosophies that have characterized it there has perhaps all along been a faith to be thereby explored.
I'm not saying its a bad thing (I would have to be wise to do so), but it likely is harmful if they do not explore that faith through understanding. They're more prone than ever to fall into the pitfalls of mysticism. If you're going to worship thy self you'd damn sure better know thyself. And if your going to know thyself, you're probably not going to do it alone, since other people have made you who you are in the first place.
jade: the church's records of baptisms are just that: records of baptisms.
history, if you will.
they mean only as much as the individual desires them to.
just ascmy enrollement in Little Little or Boy Scouts from 35yrs ago. its just a record, that this person was here, and such and such was done about it.
it no more makes them a church member than my circimcision makes me a jew.
these folks are just being silly and illogical while making religious folks look a little more rational in the process.
(hmm, i wonder if we will see a d-circumcision movement among atheist jews next. makes as much sense.)
"Atheists don't worship themselves... they simply don't worship at all."
That's kind of a dictionary definition, but I'm suggesting that the religious instinct has manifestations outside of theism. So does faith- it is in virtue of the immediacy of faith as a relation between the divine and the self that the church becomes irrelevant, that the church is what mediates our relationship with the divine.
Well, Gino, there is definitely an anti-circumcision movement in America, and I'm sure atheist Jews are involved ... men who were sexually maimed as children by their family's choices for irrational religious reasons? How could they not join up? At least the non-Jews' families were doing it for what they were told were unarguable health reasons (since largely debunked, as long as soldiers mostly stay out of flooded ditches).
I don't know many Jewish people around here, so I can't say for sure, though.
Jade, although I agree with you that probably a lot of the folks are acting politically, I also have to agree with LC and Gino on this.
Religiousity, blind faith, and irrational belief are generally what a standard-bearing Atheist decrys ... and yet what human does not in fact simply act out of their instinct and understanding of how the world "really" works? I have known many many atheists who were far more faith-based actors than most Catholics I knew growing up--and they were in complete denial of that fact. It's amazing what inconvenient truths can be psychologically ignored, especially when your native language provides no "existence" to them ;).
I use the term non-theist for those folks who really just don't 'get' why anyone needs this Divine Person(s) stuff, which are the type of people I think you are speaking of, and I use "atheist" to mean a person who is in fact against theism ... the people who actually still center part of their concept of self on their understanding of the Divine Person(s)--just in a rejecting kind of way instead of a worship kind of way. Not that I have managed to get the rest of the world to adopt my nomenclature yet ;).
"Atheist" is really an outdated term ... theism is no longer universal enough that one must really reject it. Many people never have to confront it in a serious way at all.
A couple of points:
1) I agree with pretty much everything Jade says.
2) Gino, I think you're really discounting the involvement of the British sense of humor here, which at its best points out the absurdity of institutions, be it the government (think "Ministry of Silly Walks") or in this case the Church, which (if I am not mistaken) issues certificates of baptism as well as performing the sacrament thereof. This is a joke, albeit one (like most good jokes) that gets at a fairly serious bit of truth. I.e., if a piece of paper gets you into heaven, then that should be all you need to get out of the Church (and also unload all the silly spiritual/intellectual baggage you may have inherited from it.)
3) I consider myself an atheist, but am pretty uninterested in convincing anyone to see things my way, mostly because I don't think that belief is a matter of choice. I can no more choose to believe in any sort of god at this point in my life than I can choose to believe in the tooth fairy or the moon landing. I assume the same is more or less true for theists.
brian: i guess i shouldnt expect much seriousness from the same folks who cursed the world with benny hill?
(now, who the hell decided that shit was funny in the first place)
I guess I prefer Wallace and Gromit to this silliness. A piece of paper only has as much meaning as you allow it to have. I look at my baptismal certificate as a gift my parents gave me -- the opportunity to learn and practice my faith. When I was young, I turned away from the Church for a time, but when I was ready to return, it accepted me back.
While I clearly don't agree with atheists, I can respect many of them, because they are intellectually consistent and have thought things through. I'd be willing to wager that a lot of the people who are getting these "debaptism" certs aren't intellectually consistent, or serious. And I'd also be willing to wager that a lot of these people will be back in the pews someday.
Gino - I agree that it's just a historical record - I'm just saying they are making a political statement by trying to disassociate their names with any sort of church record whatsoever. Personally, I'm apathetic towards my record of baptism... but these folks are trying to make a stink to draw attention to the movement - which is what they've accomplished.
Tully - I think there is an instinct we - as humans - have to want to surround ourselves with people of like mind - a sort of group mentality... but that doesn't make it a religious instinct.
KR - I would say that people who don't confront theism in any serious way can't be labeled as theist or atheist - it's a question of belief... which they aren't going to be able to answer until they have confronted it in some serious way.
The term "atheist" has come to be equated with "evil" or "satinist" (which is ironic, given that satanism is a religion) Even Julia Sweeney doesn't like to use that word to describe herself. Atheist does mean non-theist... some are just more outspoken than others.
Brian - Did you see this week's Family Guy? The ep is called "Not All Dogs go to Heaven" and it's on youtube & IMDB.com... Brian the dog is "outed" as an atheist, it's hilarious :)
Not yet--I watch Family Guy sporadically on Hulu (no cable or antenna in our house) so I'll be sure to catch that one.
I'm sporadic with it too... this one also has a reunion of Star Trek:TNG, which is why I made a point to watch.
I've also got a podcast for you to listen to:
http://www.chariotsofiron.com/
A friend of mine is one of the podcasters.
Brian, ya gotta believe in something! Nothing comes froms nothing. We didn't evolve from a small mole like animal or if you go back far enough a rock! Could a tornado go through a junk yard and leave a 747 super jet in it's wake?
Guitarman-as I said, I'm not interested in changing your mind. I've had the conversation you're trying to start so many times that it frankly bores the living hell out of me.
By all means enjoy whatever faith gives your life meaning. I'm doing just fine without it, thank you.
Guitarman--'not gonna take up the argument, not even sure if you are being serious or facetious; 'just going to add a dangling side-note: a few years back a lab mashed together two space rocks that contained some building blocks of life (some carbon-based molecules or other ... the base units of proteins I think) at meteorite-speed and the bits didn't get destroyed in the heat and pressure: they bonded into longer strings (more life like).
'not saying this is How Life Here Started (although many people have theorized that) ... but it sure was interesting. Your "life from stones is clearly ridiculous" implication brought it to mind. It might not be quite so clear, to a lot of people.
(The scientists were shocked when they figured out what their result was. Their reactions were frikking great ... I love excited scientists on TV, so many of them lack all Hollywood polish: they just get childlike delight and often get jumpy and huggy ... just blow right through social conventions. Fabulous TV moment. Actors never quite do them justice in movies about scientists.)
brian is a scientist.
not sure if he gets all huggy and jumpy or not.
I'm not so convinced in changing your mind Brian...just your heart. Eternity is long time to be cut off from those you love!
guitarman: eternity is only a long time if you have faith in an afterlife.
and faith is a gift.
besides, you have no proof of afterlife, though you may believe in it yourself.
thats where your gift comes in handy for you.
brian is a scientist.
not sure if he gets all huggy and jumpy or not.
Not really, no. I did "drink around the clock" (4pm-4am) the day I defended my dissertation though. I probably hugged a few people at some point.
Brian -- ;). My family is Caltech ... so I know the least socially-adept archetypes, hand-selected from around the globe. I also know some socially adept ones who ended up there too ... but it's an odd environment. Quite a lot of innocence ... leading to pure delight, occasionally captured on TV.
I take it from the probability of hugging that you successfully defended your dissertation ;). Congrats (however late) :).
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